A humble suggestion

[EarlG]

When talking about Trump's appalling behavior, don't say, "Imagine if Obama had done this," or "Imagine if Biden had done that." It's an easy thing to say -- I even noticed Hakeem Jeffries doing it the other day. But I think it's bad framing. Saying "Imagine if Obama/Biden had done this," to a conservative has two effects, neither of them useful.

First, conservatives already spend all day imagining what Obama and Biden would or did do while in office. They have already imagined the worst. They have already imagined Biden and Obama building gulags, and violating people's Constitutional rights, and profiting from the presidency. Conservatives have already been brainwashed into believing that Biden and Obama did all of that.

Second, it's weak whataboutism. If Trump is violating the Constitution, then saying, "Imagine if Obama violated the Constitution," to a conservative just drags Obama down to Trump's level. They will imagine Obama violating the Constitution. Then they will say to you, "Well if Obama did it you'd be fine with it" -- and now they have become even more entrenched in their thinking. They will feel justified in supporting Trump's Constitutional violations because they can imagine Obama or Biden doing it, and they can imagine liberals supporting Obama or Biden doing it.

So instead, try: "Obama didn't do this," or "Biden didn't do that."

It's the difference between:

"Donald Trump just accepted a $400 million bribe from a foreign government in the form of a Boeing 747. Imagine if Joe Biden did that."

And:

"Donald Trump just accepted a $400 million bribe from a foreign government in the form of a Boeing 747. Joe Biden didn't do that."

The first example asks you to imagine Joe Biden breaking the law, in order to make a false comparison between Trump and Biden. But Trump and Biden are at opposite ends of the moral spectrum -- so why plant the seed in someone's mind that Biden is the same as Trump? The second example, however, sets up a direct comparison between the two, and highlights that moral void.

So my suggestion is to avoid telling people to imagine Biden or Obama committing the same crimes as Trump, and instead point out that Biden and Obama HAVE NOT committed the same crimes as Trump.

... and that's my 2 cents.

[Drum]

1. Heartily recommended!

[Roy Rolling]

39. Perfect

I would just be a wise guy and reply “Joe Biden would never consider doing this.

Not just Joe or Obama didn’t do it. They would not even seriously consider the offer which is the lasting damage—Trump is too stupid to know he’s being played.

Just my two cents to a superb post.

[Torchlight]

2. A compelling point.

Reframing the conversation is a much more effective way to contrast behaviors without legitimizing false equivalence. It keeps the focus on accountability and the here and now, rather than speculation and variables. A smart and constructive shift—thanks for putting it out there.

[c-rational]

3. Thanks EarlG. Good messaging tip.

[kentuck]

4. Thanks Earl!

I was just getting ready to make that point. You beat me to the draw.

[CuriousSavage]

5. I hear you.

One allows them to hold onto their delusions. The other, directly challenges them to process and defend these indisputable facts. No effin way that they'd give the satisfaction of agreeing but it'll cut right to the bone. I gave up on speaking to cult members. The brief peace it gives helps but too much is at stake.

[markie]

6. excellent suggestion!

[malaise]

7. Good point

Guilty as charged 😀

[democrank]

8. Highly recommended

Framing the message correctly is so important. Thanks for this excellent suggestion.

[BOSSHOG]

9. As always EarlG

Your two cents are worth, oh about, 400 million.

[unblock]

10. how about this: imagine if the media held republicans to the same standard to which they hold democrats.

republicans couldn't get out of bed in the morning without being slammed with scandal after scandal.

every other utterance from donnie would be met lengthy investigations into his "cognitive decline!"
we'd have a sold week of "sleepy don!" stories after he dozed off on his trip.

and all his actual weaponizing of the justice department and irs and shakedowns of universities and law firms would be finally covered as the major scandals they are. remember when the media flipped out when some conservative groups claimed they were unfairly "targeted" by obama's irs? well, now we have a republican administration that's overtly using the irs and doj and ice to target groups and people for political reasons, and the media treats it instead as merely "norm-breaking" or "remarkable" or "unprecedented". i.e., very interesting, but not necessarily negative.

sadly, the media is at this point ridiculously corrupt, whether they realize it or not. the double standard is staggering.

[Uncle Joe]

11. Kicked and recommended

Thanks for the thread EarlG

[FuzzyRabbit]

12. Excellent suggestion! Here is my suggestion:

The reich wing has been reframing ideas for years. Remember "death panels" and "death tax" for example?

Liberals (and even Dems) can do the same thing. The convicted criminal Trump falls asleep during important meetings - we should remind the public and the press whenever we can about his fitness.

And Trump is a convicted criminal. We need to remind everyone whenever we write the convicted criminal Donald Trumps name that he is a convicted criminal (who falls asleep when he should be paying attention during meetings.

See how it works. Repetition can be our friend also, not just the criminal Donald tRump's.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

56. Yes. That's why I write "tariff taxes" as much as I can instead of "tariffs". Stuff like that. . . . nt

[wordstroken]

13. Completely agree. That "Imagine if . . . " phraseology has always bothered me.

Your explanation is right on target. Worth waaay more than 2 cents.
Thanks, EarlG. Well done!

[yellow dahlia]

14. A well explained suggestion - thank you.

I think it's a good idea to stay away for even the concept of whataboutism.

I wish the media and the Dems would spend more time framing things in the context of civics...and the Constitution...and the rule of law.

Yes - how we all message matters. Thanks for the logic.

[senseandsensibility]

15. Good idea

I agree. We need to reframe many aspects of our messaging, and this one could be very helpful. I think that pointing out that no Democrat has ever done this without specifically mentioning Obama or Biden might be good too. I find that any mention of Obama or Biden in any context with maga is bound to go nowhere. They seem to become disassociated from reality just by hearing the names.

[TheRickles]

18. Excellent refinement to Earl's great point.

[Gum Logger]

16. Yes. Let's not put Obama and Biden in the same breath as Grump

[duhneece]

17. I like it

I really, really like this

[mcar]

19. Makes perfect sense, thanks.

[Gimpyknee]

20. Debate team experience?

[ReRe]

21. Got it!

Thanks, EarlG.

[JMCKUSICK]

22. I couldn't agree more EarlG.

It is so important to separate the things that Trump does that are criminal from everyone else's conduct that never dared cross those lines.

[Ms. Toad]

23. The third thing is that sometimes Obama or Biden DID the thing Trump is accused of.

Children in cages with foil blankets happened under Obama before they happened under Trump. And some of the images used to illustrate how horrible Trump was were taken during the Obama administration.
Confiscation of rosaries and bibles happened under multiple administrations (including Obama) before they happened under Trump. And, again, some of the images used to condemn Trump were actually taken when Obama was president.

Despite what we think, especially on immigration, our politicians are not pure as the driven snow.

So yes, frame it as Obama/Biden didn't do this. BUT - also check to make sure that assertion is correct before making it so it doesn't end up as a gotcha. We are often woefully ignorant of a lot of things done in our name. Yes Trump is orders of magnitude worse than Obama or Biden. But let's not give the other side an easy talking point by skipping the fact checking step.

[Raine1967]

24. Thank you, seriously.

I've been struggling with the 'what-if' thing for a long time. This is such good messaging.

[ZDU]

25. Noted. Well Stated too.

Thank you!

[PatSeg]

26. Good suggestion, thanks

[LoisB]

27. I agree.

[KPN]

28. Excellent point Earl! I knew there was something that bothered me about those specific imagine if statements,

but I never quite put my finger on it. You did ... and expressed perfectly. Thanks for helping me well, think frankly.

[chowder66]

29. Thank you for putting my thoughts into words. I couldn't figure out how to say this.

Mainly because I've been crazy busy but it's been bugging me forever.

[Basso8vb]

30. A fair point, indeed.

[RoseTrellis]

31. True!

I totally agree. saying “imagine if Obama or Biden did this” plays right into conservative fantasies. They’ve already convinced themselves those guys are villains, so asking them to “imagine” just reinforces their delusions.
Worse, it opens the door for false equivalence. Instead of focusing on Trump’s actual crimes, it invites pointless hypotheticals and lets MAGA supporters say, “You’d be fine with it if Biden did it.
A better move? Stick to facts: Trump did this. Biden didn’t. That draws a clear moral line and avoids giving cover to Trump’s behavior. Thanks for calling this out — it’s exactly the kind of smart framing we need.

[Norrrm]

32. Agree!

[ProfessorGAC]

33. Well Done

Eminently sensible.

[magicarpet]

34. Narative/messaging made in our favor.

Why implicate Dems in wrong doings or unethical conduct when Dem players would refuse to become a party to that sort of questionable conduct.

ReThugs do it without hesitation and/or reservation - Dems would never consider such a thing as EVER being okay.

Dems refuse to cross that line because they cherish the longterm existence of a healthy Democracy. Where as ReThugs have no qualms what so ever of nibbling away at the edges of that same Democracy if personal enrichment or gains can be made. They are wholly devoid of the concepts of Commonweath, Community, and collaboration for the common good.

That is the main reason The United States of America is stuck in no man's land - and rapidly slipping into the darkness of Fascism.

[mdbl]

35. Instead try "No other president has ever broken the law like this"

[BWdem4life]

62. Slightly better

But still ultimately ussless against brainwashed fanatics.

[mdbl]

67. That covers every response

[ShazzieB]

36. This is an excellent suggestion!

I never thought about it this way, but this makes a ton of sense. I will keep this in mind from here on out!

What aboutism sucks no matter who is doing it, and we should not let ourselves get pulled into it, imo.

[DFW]

37. Well put! My version is.....

Obama and Biden never pulled illegal shit like that. Trump doing it doesn't make it legal, either.

In case that wasn't crystal clear from the beginning, but Trumpanzees tend to have opaque vision. It must come from all that feces-slinging at each other. No wonder their glasses get blocked so quickly..............

[Stinky The Clown]

38. AMEN, Brother!!! EXCELLENT suggestion.

[steelyboo]

40. I agree in principle, however I believe they will counter with

"yeah, but Democrat X (insert some messed up false equivalency here)!"

For example, I remember arguing with Republican's in the late 90's about the crimes of Reagan during the Iran-Contra Affair, and it was almost always met with "Yeah, but Clinton had sex with an intern!". Now honest, intelligent people could discern the difference, but we are not talking about those, we are talking about Republicans.

Still worth a try though.

[NNadir]

41. A very wise observation and suggestion. I've probably been guilty of this, but it is important how language is used.

[Native]

42. How about instead of "Joe Biden didn't do that," Joe Biden would never have done that?

I feel as you do except I think that by saying something like imagine if Biden had done that, you are subtly implying that he could have done that, when we all know that he would never never have done anything like that.

[calimary]

43. Yep. Messaging is not only what you say.

It’s HOW you say it.

[DinahMoeHum]

44. Let's add "Biden/Obama/etc. NEVER would've done it"

n/t

[FakeNoose]

45. Your 2 cents is worth a lot to all of us

Thanks EarlG!

[H2O Man]

46. Strongly recommended!

[surfered]

47. Your two cents makes sense and I would suggest also hammering them on the obvious corruption

[red dog 1]

48. K&R

[Cha]

49. I Like It.. TY, EarlG!

Much Better.... you should talk to Rep Jeffries.

[Meowmee]

50. Agree

[benfranklin1776]

51. I agree 💯

What you’re recommending is offensive framing that is providing a positive contrast to remind people of the good things Obama and Biden did as opposed to setting off the “what about” false equivalency crap 💩 they specialize in. It’s a very affirmative and positive way of viewing the situation as Lord knows the bastards will never give Obama or Biden their proper respect for all the good they accomplished and the model of Constitutional fidelity and good governance exemplified by the absence of sleaze and corruption they established. So it’s incumbent on us, as you say, to do it! 🤜🏼🤛🏼✌🏼

[George McGovern]

52. Splendid counsel EarlG. Thank You!

[Festivito]

53. Obama/Biden didn't and wouldn't do those things.

So many many many of those things. ...nope.

[Joinfortmill]

54. Completely agree. Thank you!

[NoMoreRepugs]

55. Agree. WORDS MATTER.

[Crunchy Frog]

57. I've seen posters on Xitter going on about how Obama got a gift of cufflinks,

and Clinton got a gift of a rug, honestly equating them with a gift of a $400 million luxury jet.

I don't know if it's ever possible to have a reasoned, good faith discussion with them.

[AllaN01Bear]

58. dng.

[kundalinisnake]

59. No form of rhetoric....

...is going to satisfy.

This bullshit president is beyond any remedy.

[MuseRider]

60. Thank you.

It is hard sometimes to remember how we say what we say. I know I need to be more careful. Thanks!

[BWdem4life]

61. Signed in just to say you're dreaming

They can’t be reasoned with, period.

You say “Obama / Biden didn’t do that”, they say “He would have if he could have” or “If he had, you’d be all in favor of it.” Very little difference from “What if Obama or Biden had done that.”

There are no reasonable people on his side. They are all fanatics. This country is headed directly toward a civil war of some kind. It will not end well.

[Paladin]

80. "They can't be reasoned with, period."

My sentiments, exactly.

The mainstream media is already doing conservatives enormous favors with its relentless double-standard treatment of trump, versus Biden and Obama. It is an absolute outrage, and it deserves our strongest possible response. I have enormous respect for EarlG, but I don't feel like blunting my comments in any way, shape or form, in the vain hope that some trump shit-for-brains might suddenly see the light. Might as well hope for something more realistic---like trump mastering the English language.

[planetc]

63. I always read your posts for clear thinking, and you haven't disappointed me yet. I second this post!!

[Hekate]

64. Thank you 1000 times for this. It's a pet peeve of mine.

No, the Dems did not do that. And they never would.

[NH Ethylene]

65. Solid idea.

I had noticed that those comparisons were not helpful at all. But with this, if someone wants to argue, they can't directly counter the specific Trump offense. It displays how clearly and starkly 49 is breaking laws or being cruel or acting stupid.

[Magoo48]

66. Yup, definitely agree.

[Clouds Passing]

68. Excellent correction. Consider it done.

[live love laugh]

69. Messaging is extremely important.

[msfiddlestix]

70. Right? It feels obvious to me, but maybe it's cuz I'm old as dirt and so no, I don't ever imagine Obama or Biden doing

anything remotely similar on any.single.stupid and vicious act, because they were not psychopathic narcissists, and traitors to the constitution or the soul of our country.

Also, something might be suggested about watching cable news. This too is an obvious problem our peeps seem to be glued to. I have a good friend who is as liberal as any one could be, however he is experiencing severe depression, while at the same time feeding into his depression by watching CNN first thing in the morning for hours each day.

It's really sad how his perspective is almost molded by cable news hosts and the framing of the "issues of concern" He commented about Trump becoming more "brazen" every day. An understatement if ever there was, but not a surprise.
I keep pressing him to turn it off as I'm inclined to do it here on DU from time to time.
But it falls on deaf ears, so I give up.

Definitely a very good suggestion in your OP.


\

[spanone]

71. K&R

[CaptainTruth]

72. You are 100% correct. Messaging matters!

[stopdiggin]

73. absolutely AGREE ! Every jot and tittle ! Totally spot on ! -(nt)-

[Picaro]

74. Solid advice

We are often not careful with our language—apparently not being fully aware of how important language and framing are.

I think we should talk about the people who are coming to our borders as refugees. Not as immigrants.

Calling them immigrants buys into the notion that these are immigrants that are somehow wanting to invade our country. They are not immigrants. They are refugees. Stubbornly using that term will, I believe, completely change the discussion.

You can’t contend that refugees aren’t invading force.

When we talk about Trump we should always call him a dictator. Because that is what he is aspiring to be. He is not a president he is a dictator.

ICE should always be referred to as masked thugs.

We need to remove the legitimacy. Because, in reality, this is entire administration and everyone who is working for them or enabling them are illegitimate.

[mountain grammy]

75. Very good points.

I usually say “no president in my lifetime has ever pulled this shit even the crooked republicans!”

[WyLoochka]

76. Excellent

Adopting this suggestion immediately!

[proud patriot]

77. nailed it

[Abolishinist]

78. Agreed, but I would suggest not limiting this to Obama / Biden et al.

It would be even more powerful to add Reagan and Bush to the list as well.

And while I'm at it, referring to him as a "convicted felon" should be stopped. There are a lot of convicted felons in our midst, they've served their time and I would hope most want to get on with their lives. It's no doubt hard enough to find a job with this on their resume, why continue to disparage them further?

[TommieMommy]

79. Exactly 👍 excellent choice of words

[BobTheSubgenius]

81. K&R

[Dem4life1970]

82. Love this Earl G.!

The direct contrast is way more powerful. Thank you so so much for posting this!