Heated discussion at my church's Men's Group about the "traditional role of men" in society

[maxrandb]

We are one of those religions that is seeing a surge in converts, mostly young men. It's been in the news that some young men are attracted by a view of a more "traditional" male role in society.

We are pretty evenly split between "left and right", but tonight, I had had e-fucking-nuff.

Not word for word, but I asked;

"could someone explain to me what this traditional male role in society is supposed to be? I always thought that men's role in society was pretty simple...Don't be an asshole! That's it! Just don't be an effing jerk"!

"You don't 'get' a role in society, YOU EARN A ROLE IN SOCIETY!"

"It infuriates and confuses me at the same time. I can't count the number of times I've heard people bitching about folks being given stuff they haven't earned. I've heard the 'taking my tax dollars from me to give to someone else" complaint from folks in this room so many times, it makes me want to vomit.

Now, we're supposed to just give you a "role in society" based on "tradition"? You get a prominent role simply because you happened to be born with a tallywhacker between your legs? Talk about giving someone something they haven't earned. If men would just take the role of not being an asshole, we'd all be better off"[

Thankfully, the meeting was nearing the end, but I just couldn't take one more word about the "traditional role of men".

[chowder66]

1. Thank you for putting up the good fight!

[Skittles]

2. REAL men do not need to dominate women

they stand WITH us

and when I read stories about young men supposedly being "left behind", they inevitably just cannot seem to adapt to a world that doesn't revolve around straight white christian males

[Quiet Em]

17. I have two daughters and one son

There is no detriment that my son is facing that my daughters aren't facing as well.

The young men being left behind argument holds no water and makes no sense.

[Skittles]

27. thank you

when woman and POC get more opportunities, young white men simply need to rise to the challenge (most of them do just fine), not whine about how they feel "left behind" and blame "DEI" for their own failures

[Permanut]

3. Righteous rant, maxranb..

Male entitlement runs all through the last couple of million years or so, but I like to think we've made a millimeter of progress.

We have a long way to go.

[hunter]

11. Male entitlement is not universal. That's a lie patriarchal warrior societies tell us.

I grew up in a matriarchal clan. The women owned the property, controlled the money, and determined how their children were raised. Their husbands were dreamers and voyagers. That tradition goes back to my Wild West great grandmothers, at least. They were fierce.

I see that same matriarchal pattern in my own family and in the families of my siblings.

Patriarchal societies see powerful women as a threat and do everything they can to erase them from history.

Sometimes matriarchal cultures are driven underground but they are never extinguished.

BTW, where's that Harriet Tubman twenty dollar bill? That asshole Jackson has got to go.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harriet_Tubman

[Permanut]

25. Point taken..

Seems though that most of the power has been, and still is, possessed by males.

[Iris]

4. Catholic?

That se end to be where this go for some reason

[pnwmom]

16. You haven't met enough evangelicals and fundamentalists, if you'd guess that.

Catholic women's colleges have existed almost as long as men's, because they believe in education for everyone.

[enough]

5. So well said. I wonder what reactions you'll find among the group as time goes on.

[leftstreet]

6. What does a Men's Group normally talk about?

I mean, as opposed to a co-ed group

[hunter]

13. Too often it's a pity party.

I've been wrangled into a few.

[Skittles]

15. yes, I'd like to know that too

what DO they talk about?

[maxrandb]

32. For the most part, we talk about scripture, life and raise funds for charity

It's an opportunity for fellowship and developing friendships. It's a chance for learning how to be a better person.

It's not a "boys club". It's a group of men who want to work on being closer to what the red words in the New Testament call us to be.

[applegrove]

7. Scott Galloway talks about role of men as being that of a protector.

[Skittles]

14. yeah they SAY that

what they MEAN is, they want to make all the little lady's decisions

[applegrove]

20. No. Being a man means being responsible for the welfare

of others. Being a woman too.

[Skittles]

22. huh?

uh, NO - women who rely on men for their "welfare" all too often end up in battered women's shelters

[applegrove]

24. Being an adult, male or female means being responsible for those

in your life. I did not mean that they own the people they are responsible to. Just that they owe others care and understanding be it a family member, a co-worker, civil society. It is the opposite of nihilism which is where an incel type, or oligarch, or Proud Boy member, feels no responsibility to others or society.

[Skittles]

26. that is just being a decent human being

[applegrove]

28. Yes.

[Coventina]

18. And what do women need protecting from? Other men.

It's a racket.

[valleyrogue]

35. With marriage literally a protection racket, not to mention

the prostitution aspect of it on the part of women.

Male sexual access in exchange for financial support and "benefits."

That is why it is unfixable and needs to die out, which it is in industrialized countries.

[Coventina]

36. Agree. And I say this as someone who is married for the reasons you outline.

My husband and I had been living together for 7 years, unmarried.
We had agreed to never marry, until LGBTQ+ people could get married.
(This was long ago)

Then, I quit my job to go back to school, and was without health insurance.

So, we got married so I could have health insurance.

But, I would still tell women to avoid getting married, if they can survive without it.

[617Blue]

34. Galloway is a misogynist blaming women for men's dysfunction.

[usonian]

8. Western culture is male-dominated and focuses on blame rather than accountability and responsibility.

And women are the scapegoat.

In the Lotus Sutra, and I paraphrase (I am substituting modern cosmological terms for old ones)

"Everyone, men and women alike, possesses the ‘infinite possibilities that are inherent in their (human) nature.’ It is a jewel that exists in the lives of all living beings. This is the meaning of mutual containment (1) and the holographic principle (2); this is the Lotus Sutra’s fundamental revelation.” (explanations of those are for another time)

Men and women are of equal spiritual nature. Just as night and day are manifestations of the physical laws that explain planetary rotation and light propagation, Just as heat and cold are manifestations of laws of thermodynamics, men and women are manifestations of the life of the universe, in which everything is different (sometimes extremely so) but in which the same physical laws guide change, that is, equal.

A universe (or population) of identical beings is so immensely boring that the laws of Quantum mechanics just won't allow it. It immediately differentiates.

Our differences: physical, mental, experiential, and emotional, provide meaning to the universe. We are its eyes and arms and so on. The analogy is that people are God's eyes and arms in this world, enriching it by cherishing it and being a blessing to others.

You many have heard that "Children are the face of God" That can't be denied, and people who tolerate and commit the abuse of children are damned. I also believe that Mozart's music is a gift of the divine and is played in heaven, if you believe in one.

From the movie Amadeus:

Antonio Salieri: [reflecting upon a Mozart score] On the page it looked nothing. The beginning simple, almost comic. Just a pulse. Bassoons and basset horns, like a rusty squeezebox. And then suddenly, high above it, an oboe. A single note, hanging there, unwavering. Until a clarinet took over and sweetened it into a phrase of such delight! This was no composition by a performing monkey! This was a music I'd never heard. Filled with such longing, such unfulfillable longing, it had me trembling. It seemed to me that I was hearing the voice of God.

Anyway, I live a life where my manhood is a source of help to others (I enlisted in the Coast Guard), as a trusting and loving father, finder (and returner) of lost items, "teacher" of all I have learned in my work and spiritual life, witness to the beauty of the universe in my photography, lover of music, never blaming others when it's my own damn fault.

Nobody wrote a script or even a sketch on a napkin for my life.

My principles are in the great Lotus Sutra, liberator of beings from greed, discrimination, aversion and servitude (those societal "expectations" in the form of "fairy stories" that only benefit the rich and abusive.)

My door is open.

(1) the mutual possession of the Ten Worlds

(2) three thousand realms in a single moment of life.

[Ilsa]

10. Thank you for your reply. nt

[3catwoman3]

9. "Don't be an asshole" is a good basic place to begin.

I’d love to hear about any feedback you get or further discussion that takes place.

[Tesha]

12. Patriarchy

I had a similar discussion recently, he thinks the talking heads have it right.
The usual “be a man” stuff, dominate in other words.


It brought a memory of Tucker Carlson telling men to get their testicles tanned…
If that didn’t wake up men
that getting your character
goals from these guys is nutz,
nothing will.

[KT2000]

19. Hope there are more men's groups

because their world is changing. They would really benefit from having other men to talk to about it - all ages. Women's lives are changing with the goal of more independence and freedom. Men's lives are changing as they lose the automatic traditional roles women had in the past that largely served them. Many do not know what is expected of them now.

What many men do not realize is that the vanguard generation for new roles for women was started by their mothers. They were trapped in in those roles and suffered for it. Their lives were all about submission. Many taught their daughters about that suffering so they would be open to freedom and different challenges in life.

[popsdenver]

21. My question would be:

WTF are you still doing, still going to that church?????????? Or any church for that matter, since most believe in the MALE being Dominant, and females need to be submissive, in all ways, due to being women/wives......??????????

[Skittles]

23. yup

sounds like CONSERVATISM

[maxrandb]

33. Its much more nuanced than that

There are a few in our group that might reflect that view, but the vast majority, even those on the "right" are thoughtful, decent human beings.

I'll give you one example. I have two daughters. In the "me-too" movement, I was; "rah-rah, yeah me too".

One of my friends has two sons. He was concerned that just an allegation could destroy his children's lives. He's a Dem, like me, but it bothered him. He was as concerned for his family as I was for mine.

The point I was trying to make is that if these converts think they are joining some male superiority cult, they are going to be sorely mistaken.

All it will take in one day of working in the church kitchen during our women's annual bake sale. They will find out just how equal they truly are.

[eppur_se_muova]

29. Whose tradition ? Which society ? The idea that there's only ONE mutually agreed on POV is bullshit from the beginning.

We have never been a monolithic, or even monochrome, society. It's a stretch to even use the word "we" because there's no agreement on who is included in "we", "us", or more sinisterly, "them".

I know one thing: we are not united by religion. During the years of heaviest European colonization, most immigrants to the Eastern seaboard were Protestants of one stripe or another, and those stripes did not wear well together. Go to any Southern town and you'll see multiple churches -- many of them small congregations in former storefronts or malls -- with no affiliation to any larger institution. Splitting into smaller and smaller sub-denominations has been going on for centuries, and the larger umbrella organizations are mostly losing membership. So no church or denomination in this country can claim to represent a majority -- each represents only a (usually) small, and shrinking, minority.

The best news I can see is that other OECD countries are losing their god-botherers faster than the US, which is a good motivation for relocating to one.

Beyond searching for a pre-fabricated, one-size-fits-all role in society, people need to be creating and shaping their own roles. Each of us can have multiple roles, and those roles may be widely shared, or unique to ourselves. I certainly don't see myself as bound by any single role -- not as a man, or as anything else. I can't see that democracy requires any such limits, or is at well-served by them.

Those who advocate for "traditional roles" should read more about heavily traditional societies -- Confucian, say, or "Islamist" (meaning more fundamental, less liberal than "Islam" generally). It's thoroughly depressing reading. The word "moribund", however frequently used, is never overused in such contexts. You are literally born into your role(s) in society (a brick knows its place in the wall, is a traditional metaphor) and there is very little room to change, particularly if you're not born to one of the elites. Change is always treated w/suspicion, and "improvement" outside of the accepted parameters an utterly alien concept. Pretty much the opposite of attitudes commonly and openly expressed by much of the American public, largely since its founding, and particularly since the emergence of universal suffrage (to use an old-fashioned term).

[flvegan]

30. So what answer did you get?

You said: Not word for word, but I asked;

"could someone explain to me what this traditional male role in society is supposed to be? I always thought that men's role in society was pretty simple...Don't be an asshole! That's it! Just don't be an effing jerk"!

"You don't 'get' a role in society, YOU EARN A ROLE IN SOCIETY!"

What was the response from this *checks notes* church mens' group? Genuine question, if you even got one from them.

I think you may be on to something. That said, this is why as a proper modern Christian, I live my life as a buddhist.

[Skittles]

31. yes

let's see......if we get a response