2016 Postmortem

forjusticethunders

(1,151 posts)

42. The discussion is kind of a proxy for the primary fight

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 06:39 PM

Jan 2017

The problem is that there's this idea (promoted mainly by hacks like Thomas Frank who was the original "white bigotry is really economic anxiety guys" writer) that angry bigoted Trump voters are angry and bigoted because of economic factors leaving them behind. If that was true, they'd already vote for Dems. In reality, their views on economics are informed by their revulsion at the idea of their "tax dollars" going to THOOOOOOSE PEOOOOOOOOOOPLE. Even their emphasis on manufacturing is part of that, because it's not so much an economic issue as a "we want 1952 back" issue.

As long as a super majority of White people vote against cultural and racial inclusion and tolerance, it won't matter what economic appeals we make, because their understanding of economics is framed through that visceral hatred of inclusion and tolerance.

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White progressive analysis of politics is fundamentally broken. [View all] forjusticethunders Jan 2017 OP

And don't forget the "war on drugs" TexasBushwhacker Jan 2017 #1

True on both. Ken Burch Jan 2017 #7

Yep and Yep. Iggo Jan 2017 #8

Yep Uponthegears Jan 2017 #20

Best damn post I've read on this site. Garrett78 Jan 2017 #2

agreed. JHan Jan 2017 #33

Except for this very jarring sentence brush Jan 2017 #57

My interpretation ... JHan Jan 2017 #76

Workers forming unions in low-pay countries is good for those workers but my fear... brush Jan 2017 #78

Sourcing production overseas has a lot of hidden costs forjusticethunders Jan 2017 #80

yep +++ JHan Jan 2017 #87

Thank you. That makes sense. brush Jan 2017 #89

+1 betsuni Jan 2017 #96

Absolutely Dem2 Jan 2017 #103

Who is going to buy a $2000 iPhone built in the USA BlueStateLib Jan 2017 #105

I phone Dem2 Jan 2017 #121

That is about how much it would cost NoGoodNamesLeft Jan 2017 #125

All u know is I haz iPhone? Dem2 Jan 2017 #149

I'm actually over 50 and, ironically... NoGoodNamesLeft Jan 2017 #185

Thanks for the clarification HRC2020 Jan 2017 #124

That language is fluff kenfrequed Jan 2017 #129

That describes "make perfect the enemy of good" to a "T" JHan Jan 2017 #135

No. kenfrequed Jan 2017 #145

That is certainly the way I interpreted it, but I'm happy to be educated on this matter if anyone JCanete Jan 2017 #151

the "non-binding" is important.. JHan Jan 2017 #176

I have always advocated for protectionism that has a basis on proper living standards of the workers JCanete Jan 2017 #178

Well, to be blunt.. JHan Jan 2017 #179

"the productivity of a HS worker here is greater than a low skilled worker in Vietnam" Garrett78 Jan 2017 #180

Off the top of my head.. JHan Jan 2017 #181

It seems infrastructure is key, in fact. Garrett78 Jan 2017 #183

lol..... JHan Jan 2017 #184

Nafta has been a complete and utter failure for Mexico. azmom Jan 2017 #186

I'd never argue it was perfect for Mexico: JHan Jan 2017 #188

You argued that Mexico's economy is better because of NAFTA azmom Jan 2017 #194

The reasons I don't judge it a complete failure... JHan Jan 2017 #198

I think it was a failure. forjusticethunders Jan 2017 #207

I think that's a legitimate concern. What's the answer? Garrett78 Jan 2017 #153

First off we don't sign it. kenfrequed Jan 2017 #156

It may be fluff like you said previously, but the language is there. But will it be enforced? Garrett78 Jan 2017 #157

Not quite right kenfrequed Jan 2017 #166

Nations can and have, but... Garrett78 Jan 2017 #167

People say that about a lot of things. kenfrequed Jan 2017 #168

I don't have one. This is a terribly complex problem. Garrett78 Jan 2017 #169

Agreed Dem2 Jan 2017 #102

eloquently said HRC2020 Jan 2017 #122

No, the focus must be twofold: guillaumeb Jan 2017 #3

The problem is that this analysis is "right" but it's also tactically useless. forjusticethunders Jan 2017 #9

Of course, the mortgage interest deduction TexasBushwhacker Jan 2017 #19

It is tactically necessary to frame the argument as based on race and class guillaumeb Jan 2017 #21

Do you actually believe that Sanders SUPPORTERS(I'm not talking about Bernie-he's just one voice) Ken Burch Jan 2017 #141

I particularly loathe it when people claim bernie supporters don't care about dionysus Jan 2017 #212

I don't make that claim and I don't think many do. See post #211. Garrett78 Jan 2017 #216

I didn't put those words in the mouths of any particular DUer, FYI...I dionysus Jan 2017 #217

It undid unions too ymetca Jan 2017 #4

Excellent. Best thing I've read on DU in a long time. kcr Jan 2017 #5

Look, I agree with you that nobody should say that class is the ONLY issue. Ken Burch Jan 2017 #6

You're missing the point again. forjusticethunders Jan 2017 #10

Why does dealing with race and class equate to you as NOT "centering race"? Ken Burch Jan 2017 #11

Racism is largely what enables that economic injustice and corporate domination. Garrett78 Jan 2017 #12

I grew up in one of the poorest places in the US NoGoodNamesLeft Jan 2017 #14

That's true and it makes it hard to talk to certain groups of people about racial injustice, because dionysus Jan 2017 #214

I totally agree with you that the fight against racism is crucial. Ken Burch Jan 2017 #16

What people don't get, in spite of forjusticethunder's excellent explanation, is... Garrett78 Jan 2017 #22

I agree with everything you said there. Ken Burch Jan 2017 #28

I think we should work together to find a new leader we both sides can get behind bravenak Jan 2017 #38

I'm not really interested in the Sanders vs. Clinton discussion. Garrett78 Jan 2017 #39

The discussion is kind of a proxy for the primary fight forjusticethunders Jan 2017 #42

Once again, you've nailed it. Garrett78 Jan 2017 #44

Pls explain the "TPP equals union protection" in the OP brush Jan 2017 #68

Bigotry isn't intrinsic and it isn't for nothing. Sure, not being at the bottom might be JCanete Jan 2017 #94

This message was self-deleted by its author brush Jan 2017 #66

I appreciate your efforts. Ken Burch Jan 2017 #132

Social justice forms the umbrella. Garrett78 Jan 2017 #144

Thread winning post bravenak Jan 2017 #30

That title goes to forjusticethunder. Garrett78 Jan 2017 #34

This thread is filled with awesome bravenak Jan 2017 #35

absent racism, the Republican Party would cease to be a viable institution Grey Lemercier Jan 2017 #147

Yep, replying to my own post to share 2 excerpts from Obama's speech last night: Garrett78 Jan 2017 #171

That is right, and it was awesome to hear him point that out. He also said that we need to listen to JCanete Jan 2017 #175

Of course he said that. He's a diplomat. Garrett78 Jan 2017 #182

God! This is not rocket science. We have to fight both equally, especially since a huge part of ... brush Jan 2017 #65

It is, but if the framing isn't right, it can backfire. White people in poverty, in areas that don' dionysus Jan 2017 #213

Just what this site needs...another anti-white people thread NoGoodNamesLeft Jan 2017 #13

wew lad forjusticethunders Jan 2017 #36

The defensiveness is expected ... JHan Jan 2017 #58

Understanding power is complex and takes deep analysis forjusticethunders Jan 2017 #62

If you don't want to be perceived as ... MicaelS Jan 2017 #81

Because PoC progressives don't have this issue? forjusticethunders Jan 2017 #82

Oh for the love of God, STOP IT! NoGoodNamesLeft Jan 2017 #84

Fuck the Alt-Right. MicaelS Jan 2017 #85

If you can be driven away because discussions about racism, you were never with us to begin with n/t kcr Jan 2017 #97

That's right. Iggo Jan 2017 #116

This. Starry Messenger Jan 2017 #123

People here are not "discussing racism." They are assuming that people are racists. NoGoodNamesLeft Jan 2017 #126

On second thought.... Iggo Jan 2017 #130

Okay, but do you do it for the personal reward of it or because it's right? If you're doing JCanete Jan 2017 #133

I do things (and argue points) because it is the RIGHT thing to do NoGoodNamesLeft Jan 2017 #139

those are words to live by, but my point in one of the threads about being careful about a JCanete Jan 2017 #140

I said that because I have been trying for weeks to have productive conversation, however NoGoodNamesLeft Jan 2017 #189

absolutely agree! Grey Lemercier Jan 2017 #148

Typically the message has been "Trump voters can fuck off," which I also disagree with on both JCanete Jan 2017 #127

There is a MASSIVE difference between ingrained biases in society and racism NoGoodNamesLeft Jan 2017 #131

But that is strategy, and I totally agree with it, versus your own personal sensitivity to it, which JCanete Jan 2017 #134

There is loads of bias and stereotyping NoGoodNamesLeft Jan 2017 #190

As I've pointed out to you before, 80% of Trump's supporters are Birthers. Garrett78 Jan 2017 #192

trump voters or trump supporters? That is, people actually fond of trump, or people who helped to JCanete Jan 2017 #193

I'm going to presume that most of his Birther supporters identified in the poll voted for him. Garrett78 Jan 2017 #197

Exactly NoGoodNamesLeft Jan 2017 #83

It's unfortunate you think the post is a personal attack against all white people: JHan Jan 2017 #95

People being opposed to immigration is not usually about racism, it's about the economy too NoGoodNamesLeft Jan 2017 #128

You're describing the problem but hesitating to call it by its name.. JHan Jan 2017 #137

Well said. And as FJT wrote elsewhere in this thread... Garrett78 Jan 2017 #199

Really? That's how you view it? Fighting against racism is not anti-white dude. brush Jan 2017 #69

Then perhaps the OP should not have singled out white people in the thread title NoGoodNamesLeft Jan 2017 #86

Ok, point taken. Did you read it again? it's worth the read. brush Jan 2017 #88

I read it but I disagree with the OP NoGoodNamesLeft Jan 2017 #91

The ones singled out should've been the deplorables not white progressives... brush Jan 2017 #93

Was there anything in the post that wasn't correct? True_Blue Jan 2017 #110

Aw. Iggo Jan 2017 #115

So what's the plan to end racism? How do you make people non-racist? jalan48 Jan 2017 #15

Good question. I'd like to know too. (nt) PotatoChip Jan 2017 #18

Building a multiracial alliance is not easy but it can be done with concerted effort. Garrett78 Jan 2017 #25

And I'm pretty sure we are all for that basic concept. Ken Burch Jan 2017 #37

Good to hear. How do we get the rulers of the country to hold these meetings? jalan48 Jan 2017 #40

Before there is ANY hope of ending racism... NoGoodNamesLeft Jan 2017 #41

You're not getting the point. forjusticethunders Jan 2017 #51

No, they don't. They vote against their interests because they believe lies. NoGoodNamesLeft Jan 2017 #74

Thing is forjusticethunders Jan 2017 #75

Not where I come from it's not a "black thing." NoGoodNamesLeft Jan 2017 #77

Before there is any hope of having a meaningful conversation about racism, Dark n Stormy Knight Jan 2017 #206

This is my question. OnionPatch Jan 2017 #107

The OP is addressing focus: JHan Jan 2017 #108

Unfortunately, I think it would be like passing legislation requiring us to all love one another. jalan48 Jan 2017 #109

That's not what the OP is saying: JHan Jan 2017 #111

What the OP says is "White Progressives analysis is fundamentally broken". jalan48 Jan 2017 #112

If you get caught up with the headline you miss the more nuanced points: JHan Jan 2017 #113

Dividing groups in society against one another to gain power goes back thousands of years. jalan48 Jan 2017 #114

How do you get the votes to restructure society forjusticethunders Jan 2017 #161

How do we get the votes? By reaching out to others and showing them who the real enemy is. jalan48 Jan 2017 #162

And why do they not already accept who the real enemy is? See the OP. Garrett78 Jan 2017 #163

While society has enlightened itself, however slowly, over time and continues dionysus Jan 2017 #215

Stop Saying Trumps Win Had Nothing To Do With Economics PotatoChip Jan 2017 #17

Nobody said that. You've missed the point. Garrett78 Jan 2017 #23

How so? PotatoChip Jan 2017 #24

The OP explained it so eloquently and better than I can. Garrett78 Jan 2017 #26

I've read it 4 times now, but still don't get what the OP is trying to say. (nt) PotatoChip Jan 2017 #27

Read post #9 by the same author. Garrett78 Jan 2017 #29

None of this makes any sense to me. PotatoChip Jan 2017 #43

The only way to take down the oligarchy is to end the racism they invented to keep bravenak Jan 2017 #45

Labor in the white skin can never free itself as long as labor in the black skin is branded. forjusticethunders Jan 2017 #47

That was pretty good bravenak Jan 2017 #48

Aren't we already doing that? PotatoChip Jan 2017 #53

No. We are not doing enough. bravenak Jan 2017 #55

I don't understand why you think anyone is suggesting that... Garrett78 Jan 2017 #46

Why do working class whites vote for policies that actively screw them? forjusticethunders Jan 2017 #49

Why bother w/Trump voters? PotatoChip Jan 2017 #61

Our generation is really progressive, though white millennials still broke for Trump. forjusticethunders Jan 2017 #63

And white women broke for Trump, as well. Regarding millennials... Garrett78 Jan 2017 #71

Obama also lost young white voters to Romney . JI7 Jan 2017 #92

unfortunately the post Millennials (iGen, Gen Z, whatever you wish to call them, people born post Grey Lemercier Jan 2017 #150

I'm very skeptical about this. Everybody in the 14-18 age cohort I've interacted with forjusticethunders Jan 2017 #155

I'm somewhat skeptical about those specifics, too, but... Garrett78 Jan 2017 #158

I agree forjusticethunders Jan 2017 #159

Read this awesome post bravenak Jan 2017 #32

yes absolutely. But that means we have to look at the people using the tools. We can't fix this JCanete Jan 2017 #50

For an analogy, you're gonna go into a fight against a bully. forjusticethunders Jan 2017 #54

Here, try this one. JCanete Jan 2017 #60

" We can deliver them the real villain that is causing them pain." forjusticethunders Jan 2017 #67

You have to tie that racist brainwashing to the money. That kind of means you have to show them JCanete Jan 2017 #70

Good post. It had a nice positive vibe to it. PotatoChip Jan 2017 #99

yeah, there are things that can be done here for sure. Case by case is a little slow, but of course, JCanete Jan 2017 #118

See now we're getting on the same page forjusticethunders Jan 2017 #106

Rev. Barber Garrett78 Jan 2017 #117

I actually thought I linked that article forjusticethunders Jan 2017 #119

Yes, I agree that conversations about race can't be for a later date. Focusing on its usage as a JCanete Jan 2017 #120

The economic conditions are enabled by racism, both overt and 'soft'. Garrett78 Jan 2017 #72

Great post forjusticethunders: Recommended. JHan Jan 2017 #31

Enjoyed the op. NCTraveler Jan 2017 #52

Which white progressive are you referring to, here? Just Bill Clinton? TygrBright Jan 2017 #56

K&R Starry Messenger Jan 2017 #59

The most progressive state in America is California forjusticethunders Jan 2017 #104

The Democratic Party isnt going to back down from defending minority rights Gothmog Jan 2017 #64

Excellent essay! mcar Jan 2017 #73

Thank you! Political_Junkie Jan 2017 #79

Brilliant post. Thank you. EffieBlack Jan 2017 #90

I have a big crush on your posts, forjusticethunders. Thank you and moar please. betsuni Jan 2017 #98

Is this the plan, really? Kentonio Jan 2017 #100

Look, how do you sell economic populism to people forjusticethunders Jan 2017 #138

The ACA-Obamacare dichotomy would be funny if it wasn't so damn consequential. Garrett78 Jan 2017 #142

The Republicans always run on the economy when they win. Trump certainly did. Kentonio Jan 2017 #152

Hillary won "economy" voters and lost "immigration and terrorism" voters. forjusticethunders Jan 2017 #154

Keep telling yourself that. Kentonio Jan 2017 #173

Everything FJT wrote in that post is true. Garrett78 Jan 2017 #174

Renowned racist Steve King of Iowa was interviewed by Robert Siegel of NPR Garrett78 Jan 2017 #200

The Political Third Rail no_hypocrisy Jan 2017 #101

Anti-discrimination laws are not going to break up azmom Jan 2017 #136

As I've written elsewhere in this thread... Garrett78 Jan 2017 #143

Isn't the Democratic Party a multi-racial alliance? azmom Jan 2017 #146

The Democratic electorate is diverse but divided, and not great enough in number. Garrett78 Jan 2017 #164

so i searched the whole thread and found NO reference to 'radio' certainot Jan 2017 #160

It's the whole media in different ways, and radio is absolutely still a big part of it, but yep... JCanete Jan 2017 #165

Yep, that's a big part of the brainwashing on a tactical level. forjusticethunders Jan 2017 #172

From Obama's farewell address: Garrett78 Jan 2017 #170

Bingo! JHan Jan 2017 #177

He said much more than that. azmom Jan 2017 #187

Yep, we have to address the reason why such folks keep finding... Garrett78 Jan 2017 #191

What are the priorities of blacks and Hispanics that voted for Trump? azmom Jan 2017 #195

Hard to say without polling information. Garrett78 Jan 2017 #196

"...no American worker movement will succeed so long as racism remains rampant in America." Garrett78 Jan 2017 #201

Racism and economic anxiety often go together. Willie Pep Jan 2017 #202

Decimation of unions was enabled by racism. And addressing racism is key to labor movement success. Garrett78 Jan 2017 #203

But unions have been successful in the past when racism was even stronger than it is now. Willie Pep Jan 2017 #204

Excerpts from one of the articles I posted: Garrett78 Jan 2017 #208

And an excerpt from another article I posted: Garrett78 Jan 2017 #209

This is a thread I'm sorry I missed when it was happening. Dark n Stormy Knight Jan 2017 #205

White progressive analysis? Rex Jan 2017 #210

From a Salon article: Garrett78 Jan 2017 #211